The Large Benefits of Investing Later in Life

Mindy:
Monetary independence is your aim and you’ve got the foundations down, however you’re getting slightly little bit of a later begin. Immediately we’re going to deal with the benefits you’ve and the right way to decide how a lot you really want for retirement. Good day, hiya, hiya and welcome to the BiggerPockets Cash podcast. My title is Mindy Jensen and with me as all the time is my outdated soul co-host, Scott Trench. BiggerPockets has a aim of making 1 million millionaires. You’re in the proper place if you wish to get your monetary home so as as a result of we actually imagine monetary freedom is attainable for everybody, irrespective of when or the place you’re beginning, even in the event you’re getting a later begin in your monetary journey.

Scott:
We’re right here at this time with Jackie and Invoice from Catching As much as fi. That is half two of a two-part collection on the right way to catch as much as monetary independence, a prescriptive step-by-step information to doing that. And final time we coated 4 form of important pre-work steps, if you’ll, to place in collectively a monetary plan. And at this time we’re going to cowl the nitty gritty of truly implementing and setting up and starting to implement a monetary plan that may transfer you in direction of retirement by conventional retirement age, even in the event you’re ranging from getting a late begin.

Mindy:
Jackie Cummings Kowski and Invoice Younger, welcome again to the BiggerPockets Cash podcast. I’m so excited to speak to you at this time. Thanks guys.

Invoice:
Nicely, thanks Scott. Thanks Mindy.

Scott:
So look, we left off speaking about these steps right here about waking up, understanding that it’s time to go and catch as much as monetary independence, giving your self some grace. Most Gen Xers, the typical Gen Xer has $40,000 saved for retirement. So many individuals are behind on this. It is advisable then as the subsequent step right here, diagnose your place to begin. Which means monitoring your web value and making a price range, understanding the place the money is coming in and popping out of your life. It is advisable paint an image of what you need retirement to appear to be. It is advisable perceive the errors and the wins and the losses which have led to stepping into the present scenario with that pre-work finished, now it’s time to truly use that to create a severe monetary plan that may transfer you in direction of retirement. Jack and Invoice, how do we start that course of right here of making this plan as soon as we now have accomplished this? What’s step one and the way do you consider it?

Invoice:
Nicely, as I stated within the final episode, you bought to have an investor coverage assertion, however individuals wish to know concerning the numbers, proper? That’s the place lots of people begin, however in lots of ways in which’s the 20%. That’s the place you actually need to complete after you pause, plan and now pivot. What we did was take away our funds from a dysfunctional monetary advisor that was charging us manner an excessive amount of and I didn’t even understand how a lot they had been charging us. I didn’t know what a web value was after which doing so was fairly scary. I had had my head within the sand for 20 years, however what we did was simply go to Vanguard and pull all our funds over there after a yr two lengthy schooling course of, slightly bit of study paralysis, and also you do have to leap in and be keen to make some errors, however late starters don’t have essentially the time to make massive errors.
And so in the event you want slightly assist in getting your plan began, discovering a very good monetary advisor, which I’m certain you’ve talked about in different reveals could also be a superb thought is simply too overwhelming to take this on your self. However we did a quite simple strategy however we didn’t get there straight away. We began out with what I name the Paul Merriman strategy. We had a tens funds for all times, a number of asset lessons, troublesome to rebalance and I’ve labored again to a quite simple strategy. We purchase a complete world fund, that’s our solely fairness publicity. Then we now have intermediate treasuries, short-term, treasuries and money. It’s actually that easy and I take pleasure in that as a result of it’s important to plan in your partner. I often is the CFO of our house, however my spouse has to have the ability to handle this in a easy manner. After we get to say the section of drawdown,

Mindy:
That’s such a terrific level to make Invoice, not solely are you creating this plan, however it’s important to make it in order that your accomplice who could or might not be as invested within the idea of investing as you’re, they’ve to have the ability to perceive it too. And having a brilliant difficult funding technique is nice in the event you each perceive it, in the event you’re each capable of execute it. However in the event you draw up this tremendous difficult coverage and we’re going to do that after which we’re going to do that and this and your accomplice’s like I do not know the right way to do any of that, then it’s too difficult and it is advisable to both get anyone to assist them perceive it or simplify it. However much more so than that, I wish to understand how do I understand how a lot I want for retirement? I

Jackie:
Assume what resonated with me and what attracted me to the fireplace neighborhood is that they had been the primary individuals speaking about it in quite simple phrases is utilizing that 25 occasions your bills. And that’s boiled all the way down to the only manner to take a look at it. Now we all know in an effort to try this it’s important to know what your bills are. It’s a must to form of see what your life prices. So there’s loads of belongings you may must do to get there. However to know the large umbrella is 25 occasions your bills, not your earnings. And I believe the monetary career likes to focus in your earnings as a result of in the event you’ve acquired a 30% financial savings charge, 40% financial savings charge, no matter, that’s going to make a distinction In case your bills in retirement are going to be much less since you paid off your own home or issues like that. So that’s how you determine how a lot you want and the extra easy the higher since you’re not going to be caught in your tracks since you suppose it’s too advanced. Invoice, I don’t know in the event you figured it out a special manner, what you guys wanted for retirement.

Invoice:
No, precisely the identical manner and it really works. It’s nonetheless going to take you time. You’ve acquired to learn the shockingly simple arithmetic in accordance with Mr Cash mustache in order that if I’ve this financial savings charge, it’s going to take me this lengthy to get there. In order that helps you work this out. However 25 occasions works completely effectively.

Jackie:
Yeah, and that’s form of on the entrance finish of that 4% rule. You save 25 occasions your bills on the entrance finish, that’s your nest egg. Then on the again finish, you are taking off 4% of that every yr and there’s a excessive chance that nest egg will final you the remainder of your life. Now, the 4% rule or guideline or no matter you wish to name it, we all know that that isn’t good and other people’s lives aren’t good and even like that yearly goes to look slightly totally different. So there’s loads of different methods you are able to do it, however you want some reference level, some form of place to begin. So pondering it by way of the 4% guideline by way of what it is advisable to take off annually, that’s a terrific place to begin, however issues will go up and down, particularly in the event you retire slightly early, possibly you’ve some earnings that’s coming in, possibly you bought a pension. There’s every kind of little variables that may allow you to make the correct changes annually identical to we do in our common working life. What if we get laid off? What if issues occur? Nicely, it doesn’t cease occurring when you’re in retirement. So you bought to begin with some form of pointers. So 25 occasions your bills on the entrance finish to create your nest egg after which 4% taken off your nest egg annually adjusted for inflation goes to offer you an excellent thought of the place it is advisable to be.

Scott:
And that is such a strong train. As soon as you are taking management of your price range and your web value assertion and then you definitely perceive, hey, what I must retire is I want 25 occasions my annual bills. If I wish to spend 40 grand a yr, I want 1,000,000 {dollars}. If I wish to spend 100 grand a yr, I want $2.5 million. That’s so highly effective. It makes the sport a lot very achievable, particularly once we speak about social safety as a result of you’ll be able to depend on not less than a few of that in your monetary planning and that may be a massive enhance to this. I wish to get again to that one in slightly bit right here as effectively. However that I believe actually frees up the sport and I wish to name out crucial variable in getting there. When you’ve been a full-time worker and plan to be one by retirement age goes to be your bills as a result of each time you scale back your bills, you scale back, you each improve the amount of money it’s important to make investments and pile up your nest egg and also you scale back the strain on your self to construct up an unlimited nest egg to gasoline retirement.
In case you are spending 80 grand a yr, you want $2 million to retire. Nicely, in the event you can scale back that spend progressively to $60 million, now you want 1.5 and also you’re accumulating extra sooner. So it’s such an unimaginable mathematical variable and this train could be very liberating as a result of you’ll be able to actually start to again into that. Now if we add social safety on high of that, possibly these numbers begin to be actually more and more achievable on that entrance. So actually,

Jackie:
And to not point out a pension as effectively, and I’ve to confess, I don’t know Invoice in the event you put social safety into your retirement plan, however I didn’t. So after I was in my thirties after I’m form of, effectively, I used to be truly in my forties after I began actually what I wanted and I didn’t embody social safety in any respect. I used to be the largest pessimist. I used to be overly pessimistic. Now since I retired, I cleaned out the cobwebs and I stated, what, I’m actually inquisitive about this social safety piece. You hear the, often there’s lots of political undertones about social safety. And I’m like, what? I must do my very own analysis. So I did my very own analysis and there’s no manner social safety goes to fully go away and be fully destroyed like I used to be pondering.
Nevertheless, the actuaries, these are the good guys manner smarter than us with regards to the maths, however they put out this report each single yr and so they clearly will inform you based mostly on our numbers and our analysis, right here’s what the shortfall goes to be. If nothing modifications the key phrase, if nothing modifications, Congress will change it. However they’ll do it actually two days earlier than it’s going to explode. So principally roughly if nothing modifications in 2034, we are able to anticipate to get about 75% of the said advantages that we see on our statements. So I did an instance, I’m a nerd like that, however I did an instance the place I took anyone that retired early, they solely labored 10 years. All you want is 10 years to qualify for social safety. More often than not they’re speaking about 35 years. That’s what it’s calculated off of.
That’s high quality, however in the event you don’t have 35 years, they’re going to place zeros. However so long as you’ve 10 years or 40 quarters or generally how it’s termed. However I took an instance of an individual that made 60 grand a yr, they labored for 10 years and by no means labored a day of their life the place there’s all your wages get adjusted for inflation. That’s one factor. After which as soon as I did all the maths and utilized all the proper formulation, that person who made roughly $60,000 a yr for 10 years and by no means labored a day of their life, they’d nonetheless qualify for a couple of thousand {dollars} a month adjusted for inflation the remainder of their life. And the federal government can print cash. So there can be one thing, particularly so long as you’ve youthful staff paying that F assault, that social safety and Medicare. So the, that’s the analysis and the information factors I checked out as a result of I actually needed some actual numbers. So since I didn’t embody it in my plans, now I’ve slightly bit extra peace of thoughts as a result of that’s my backstop in my older years. So even if you wish to give it some thought as a backstop, it may very well be a really highly effective backstop as a result of hardly nothing else is adjusted for inflation. And naturally no person else can print cash.

Scott:
And by the way in which, that’s one thing that at any time when we’re speaking about these numbers, just like the 4% rule and all these numbers, they’re all adjusted for inflation. The 4% rule already incorporates inflation changes, social safety already modify for inflation. And I like what you stated about social safety there. We interviewed Jeremy Keel on BiggerPockets cash episode 3 44, and he got here, he had the very same conclusion. I believe it was like 73, 70 5%. Social safety advantages might lower by as a lot as that if nothing modifications over the subsequent few a long time. And being a skeptical millennial, I don’t imagine I’m going to get any social safety, however I imagine the people who find themselves at the moment getting social safety are most likely extra more likely to get even increased percentages of that. However I do suppose that once more, you do that evaluation after which you consider social safety as a buffer, that nearly definitely goes to have some profit that may be actually liberating train. Now the aim acquired far more achievable, proper? For saying, I simply want $40,000 to get by in retirement. That’s my baseline. You may get there in 10 years in the event you’re good, make some good bets and make some good choices over that point interval. And also you may not even need to get all the way in which there. Or in the event you get there, you may need a pleasant bonus from social safety that may up that high quality of life.

Jackie:
Proper. And Scott, to your level, being a millennial, so for our late starters, they’re a lot nearer to social safety age, so it’s extra seemingly that no matter modifications they make could not affect them or the older era or mid era as a lot because the 20 yr olds simply popping out of school. That’s one thing to remember as effectively. Sometimes in the event that they make an adjustment, and this isn’t the one time in historical past, however sometimes in the event that they make an adjustment to one thing like social safety, people who age, they’re a vital voting block and the modifications are extra seemingly going to affect the youthful generations, the 20 yr olds, possibly the 30-year-old. In order that’s one thing good to remember too.

Mindy:
Sure, that may be a actually essential level to notice. Your social safety will not be in danger for the later starters, and after they do make the modifications, they make them effectively prematurely. The 20 yr olds who’ve an extended runway of time to truly save up for his or her retirement, however to eliminate social safety or for social safety to simply crumble, that will be a congressional act and there’s no politician in America that’s going to vote for lowering or eradicating social safety on the individuals who vote. Now that isn’t going to occur.

Invoice:
Nicely, social safety is a part of our plan and I’d encourage individuals to get very strategic about how they take it, which is absolutely essential. Mike Piper has finished lots of analysis on this regard. He has a calculator referred to as Ocean Open social safety.com, and infrequently the upper wage earner is meant to attend ideally till 70 for the utmost profit. And then you definitely will be extra strategic about when your partner ought to you’ve one takes it, however there’s a lot of permutations and mixtures and Mike Piper’s calculator permits you at no cost to assist determine this out.

Jackie:
Yeah, and let me add, you talked about spouses, so even if you’re divorced like me, in the event you had been married for not less than 10 years, there are some particular provisions within the social safety system and the foundations the place that will add some extra choices to you in the event you had been married for not less than 10 years and also you’re at the moment divorced. So don’t overlook about that, that doesn’t get talked about quite a bit. Sometimes individuals are speaking about all of the choices you’ve when you’ve a present partner, however there are additionally choices for somebody that’s divorced in the event that they had been married for 10 years or extra. Coming

Mindy:
Up, we’re going to speak about unlocking your superpowers of expertise and discover some healthcare instruments that you need to use to your benefit in retirement proper after this fast break.

Scott:
Alright, we simply coated how a lot do I must retire and a few ideas round social safety and factoring that in to that query. Now let’s get in to forming the plan and the right way to get there. Just a bit fast tip, since we talked about social safety earlier than the break, I wish to let all you bought to do is sort in social safety calculator into Google and the Social Safety Administration has put collectively a device that may assist you calculate the advantages you’d obtain in social safety both in at this time’s {dollars} adjusted for inflation or future inflated {dollars} downstream. And if you would like, you’ll be able to in fact knock these down by 70 all the way down to 25% to 75% or 30% to 70% or no matter you wish to issue that into your planning. I believe that will most likely be clever personally. As a part of that I wish to speak about now serious about the plan right here and we talked about earlier than the break, how essential it’s to maintain your bills low, how that helps you generate far more earnings to speculate and reduces the goal of whole wealth it is advisable to truly retire. And I’ve lengthy held this thesis that there are three massive bills which are basically the entire sport with regards to planning your monetary future and people are housing, transportation and meals. Jackie and Invoice, have you ever discovered that to be true in your journeys? Did it’s important to seize management of these three buckets in an effort to catch as much as FI or did you do one thing else?

Invoice:
Nicely, I fully agree. If I hadn’t renovated a home and constructed a home, we’d be retired. It’s actually that easy. After which transportation. We purchased new vehicles, we leased vehicles. It’s one of many largest, in accordance with Rob Berger who we had on our present, one of many largest retirement busters on the market, I believe he listed as quantity two. So far as meals goes, we nonetheless eat out quite a bit and that’s one of many areas you’ll be able to actually reduce on. When you prepare dinner at house store prudently, you can also make an enormous distinction there as effectively. So I agree with you fully, Scott, that you simply’ve acquired to deal with the large three rocks and it’s superb how a lot of a spot you could find in the event you try this. It’s simply onerous to do it as a late starter as a result of it’s reversing that consumption paycheck to paycheck way of life. It’s not simply downsizing your own home however downsizing your life

Scott:
Invoice. All 4 of us, I imagine made our main progress in direction of retirement early retirement years in the past. Do you suppose that’s nonetheless true at this time? Do you suppose individuals with the lock-in impact, possibly they’ve an excessive amount of house however they will’t truly downsize moderately due to that lock-in impact. Is that slightly tougher now or have you ever skilled that in your neighborhood?

Invoice:
Nicely, yeah, with rates of interest I think about it’s a lot tougher to do. So the motion there simply isn’t occurring. And one factor we did, which made an enormous distinction, however I’ve to inform the viewers, I’m 58, I’m nearer to social safety. Hey, I’m nearly 59 and a half. So I’m actually trying ahead to that simply in case the entire thing blows up.

Jackie:
Nicely, I don’t suppose Invoice seems to be a day over 45. What do you guys suppose?

Scott:
I fully agree.

Jackie:
I used to be going to go along with 42. Nicely, I do have one thing so as to add with the large three. As I used to be doing slightly little bit of my evaluation and my very own numbers and issues like that, I believe there’s a fourth one individuals overlook about and that’s taxes. Lots of people don’t suppose that they’ve management over their taxes, however you actually do from issues like doing a conventional IRA or conventional 401k, that’s going to cut back your taxable earnings. A well being financial savings account, a household contribution is like $8,000 or one thing like that. That reduces your taxable earnings. And there’s simply so many different methods if in case you have a small enterprise or in the event you’re self-employed, you can begin ensuring you’re preserving higher monitor of your bills and bumping them up towards your earnings. So I really feel like I used to by no means really feel like I had management of taxes annually the way in which I grew up. Tax time was an enormous refund examine and that’s what taxes meant to me. However from some good tax planning, that may very well be an enormous line merchandise that may be adjusted. Are there any tax credit or extra deductions that you could possibly be getting and issues like that. So that might add up.

Scott:
A giant query within the early retirement world is how do I take into consideration healthcare expense within the conventional retirement world? We now have Medicare, so how do I take into consideration that expense into my older age there if I’m attempting to catch up tophi.

Jackie:
So even when we’re getting slightly late begin, lots of people nonetheless will find yourself getting finished of their fifties, possibly their sixties, presumably earlier than Medicare. So that they need to do the hole. Possibly the hole will not be as lengthy of a time period. When you retire, let’s say 59, effectively you’ve acquired 5 years until you will get Medicare. And there’s loads of methods, such as you stated you’ve talked about within the early retirement neighborhood, however you’re nearer to the 65 Medicare age. And that’s an essential piece to grasp as effectively as a result of I used to suppose this, some individuals nonetheless suppose Medicare is free. Nicely, the hospital half, which is an element A, I believe yeah, that half is free. Nevertheless, for most individuals, for half B, which is what we usually consider as medical insurance and we’re used to once we’re working that half B, there’s a price to that.
I believe this yr it’s round $180 a month and it will get adjusted for inflation. So that you’ve acquired that after which a drug plan that’s slightly bit additional that could be take you to round 200, $250 a month relying in your plan. After which there’s every kind of different choices. However you additionally need to keep in mind that Medicare doesn’t embody dental, it doesn’t embody listening to, it doesn’t embody imaginative and prescient. So there’s nonetheless loads out of pocket that you simply’re going to be paying along with the Medicare premium that it’s important to plan for. And there’s some methods to cowl for that. However I assume the entire thought is when you find yourself planning, be sure to are utilizing actual numbers and what to anticipate.

Invoice:
One other factor that it doesn’t embody is long-term care and other people overlook about that.

Mindy:
That could be a very actual likelihood for many Individuals as they age. Does Medicare have copays?

Jackie:
Sure, Medicare has copays. It really works similar to the insurance coverage that you’ve got at work and there’s some extra plans which you could add on high of the Medicare like Medigap or Benefit or one thing like that. So you bought to essentially run your numbers on that and the place to begin can be the half B, common insurance coverage does have the copays and issues like that. After which the drug plan, you wish to take a look at that. And truthfully, as we become old, our healthcare consumption tends to go up and issues like imaginative and prescient like man, I used to all the time have 2020, I’ve to put on glasses now after I’m lengthy distance. My listening to will not be what it was once. I acquired my quantity turned up on my headphones, I by no means wanted to do this. My daughter tells me the TV’s too loud. So all these little issues will begin to add up with regards to well being and associated issues.
So we do need to, and I’ve come by the fact. I really feel very fortunate that each my daughter and I’ve been very low shoppers. She’s an grownup now, so she’s not on my insurance coverage anymore. However when she was, we had been each very low shoppers of healthcare and we hardly spent something on healthcare. I do know that that’s most likely not going to be the case submit 50, submit 60 as I become old, you’ll be able to simply take a look at your older relations and any older people who lots of ’em, while you begin the conversations, they begin telling you about their well being issues. And I hope to not be a kind of individuals.

Mindy:
I’ll hold you in examine, Jackie, however one factor you are able to do now that you’re, I imply hopefully we’re all going to become old and we’re all going to wish Medicare. And one of many issues you are able to do now could be begin contributing to an HSA. It’s a must to have a excessive deductible plan so as to have the ability to do that, however your HSA {dollars} don’t need to be spent proper now. So if you’re older nonetheless in good well being, you’ll be able to cashflow your bills at the moment, it can save you up these receipts after which money these in later or use your HSA {dollars} in your medical bills down the street.

Jackie:
Yeah, that’s a good way to make use of an HSA. And earlier than I even knew what I used to be doing, we had been on an HSA as a result of truthfully, like I stated, me and my daughter had been very low shoppers of healthcare. So we weren’t even assembly the low deductible, just like the $500 deductible. So when my firm launched a excessive deductible plan with an HSA and I knew I might spend money on it and so they had been placing cash in it too, that sounded nice. However as time goes by mad scientists who wrote that tremendous article referred to as the Well being Financial savings Account, the Final Retirement Account, I’m like, Ooh, I’m doing one thing proper. So I maxed out my HSA for 12 years. I began as quickly as my firm began providing them 2008. So from 2008 to the yr I retired in 2019, that was about 12 years I maxed, I did the household max and this can be a key for household.
All you want is you and one of many individuals. So in the event you’re singleton with a child, that’s nonetheless thought-about household. So maxing that out and I invested it as quickly as they’d let me. I believe I needed to hold $2,000 in there. So I ended contributing to my HSA as soon as I retired as a result of now I’m on a conventional plan, however I continued letting it develop. I simply have a straight up index fund. I believe it’s like a complete inventory market index fund that’s in there. It’s a development fund. However at this time that HSA has now grown to about $200,000 I’d’ve by no means imagined and I don’t wish to die with it essentially. So Mindy, to your level, what I’ve determined to do with it, I assumed quite a bit concerning the drawdown technique as a result of while you inherit an HSA, it stops being an HSA, so it’s taxable.
It’s not like a daily retirement account. So what I made a decision to do is to make use of my HSA to begin drawing all the way down to pay one my Medicare premiums. You are able to do it for the half B and the half D, and also you get a pleasant annual assertion. So it’s tremendous straightforward. You don’t have to trace very a lot. After which on high of that, once more, I’m banking on extra bills and healthcare prices as soon as I’m slightly bit older, so I’ll use it for out of pocket, I can use it for copay, I can use it for imaginative and prescient, dental listening to. So that’s my technique for drawdown with that HSA and it may very well be very, very invaluable. And for individuals, I really feel like it’s a psychological shift while you go from paying $5 each time you go to the physician to now paying let’s say $82. However while you begin to add all of the items collectively, your premium is less expensive for a excessive deductible well being plan and also you don’t need to be on it endlessly. You modify your medical insurance yearly. So for me, I had it for 12 years. So even if in case you have yours for 5 years, it might create a reasonably highly effective little nest egg.

Invoice:
Yeah, I fully agree with every little thing Jackie stated. Now we have our HSA, we max it out. It’s in a single index fund and I’ve to plug one firm right here as a result of I believe Jackie makes use of it as effectively. Constancy has a no price HSA and so they do a terrific job with the HSA. So I’d encourage your viewers to take a look at that too. A

Scott:
Couple of issues right here, if I’m zooming again out to the elements of the dialogue we simply had right here, and I’m trying, the very first thing that we must be doing is saying, can I downsize my home? As a result of that’s going to be the one largest variable. I believe that’s going to alter the trajectory of funds that will or might not be affordable in your scenario. Then it’s what you drive, then it’s your meals price range, then it’s tax leakage. However we’re going to truly going to most likely assault the tax downside with the funding strategy beginning with the HSA as we undergo our monetary planning strategy right here after which it’s healthcare. And as soon as we’ve made actually good choices on these different three, if we are able to get these prices all the way down to affordable, so we’re nonetheless residing a contented life, however actually ensuring that we’re getting the worth in these three choices.
The remainder of the pie chart is simply controlling the bills and ensuring that you simply’re getting worth out of all of these different issues. All these different classes, management it, watch it. However these massive three are going to make these massive three or 4 are going to make all of the distinction right here. After which I like it. The very first thing in a monetary plan, if I’m ranging from zero at age 50 or 55 and attempting to catch as much as 5 is max out the HSA and put an index fund. Mindy, in fact has supercharged the returns in her HSA by investing in Tesla. That’s a big gamble. We are able to get into that one other time about why which may not be the most effective funding recommendation there.

Jackie:
Mindy. Mindy, do you’ve Tesla in your HSA? Sure. Wow. Yeah. I imply I went say with a development index fund, however yeah, that’s tremendous good as a result of that’s one other account the place you do wish to have excessive development property as a result of while you take it out as tax free for medical bills, take a look at that good lady and it’s not all Tesla, but it surely

Mindy:
Is. I would like some development in there. I would like that to develop since you put it in tax-free, it grows tax-free, you withdraw it tax-free. They name it triple tax benefit. And I wish to pay all of the taxes I’ve to and not one of the taxes. I don’t need to.

Invoice:
Nicely, if there’s one place to take danger, it’s in your HSA for optimum development. I imply that’s what we do too.

Jackie:
I’m going to need to revisit my allocation and my HSA look. I’m already writing that down. That’s a to-do as soon as we’re finished right here.

Scott:
Simply a few issues for people which are serious about this HSA, as a result of I agree, that is the very first thing you’re serious about the right way to catch as much as retirement, max out the HSA. Now you solely can have an HSA if in case you have a nasty medical insurance plan, one with a excessive deductible, the next out of pocket max and people kinds of issues. So in the event you’re somebody who commonly meets your deductible, you could not need the HSA or are more likely to meet that deductible over the subsequent two or three years for no matter causes that could be a choice. In case your employer gives a plan that has higher protection for you, you might not be eligible for an HSA after which we simply transfer all the way down to the subsequent merchandise within the record from a monetary planning perspective and put the money into that bucket. In order that’s only one factor to notice.
After which as you’re serious about the HSA, we would like the HSA to develop as a result of it’s the supercharged retirement account. Even when we don’t spend money on Tesla inventory within it, and we would like that cash to develop. So it’s important to decide, am I going to pay my medical insurance prices after they do give you the money in my HSA or am I going to let it develop? And I believe lots of people that get severe about this make the choice, Hey, I’m going to truly pay my copay my physician and my common medical payments simply with my bank card and my checking account assertion as a result of I would like that HSA cash to develop as a result of it’s a very nice safety blanket going into retirement. What do you guys suppose? Is that the way you strategy it?

Invoice:
Completely. That’s how we strategy it. And all of the issues Jackie stated about paying your Medicare prices and copays. We’ve saved, as Mindy stated, all of our receipts and there have been a lot of bills over time and you may pull that out tax free and spend it on something you need. Truly.

Jackie:
Yeah, there’s no time restrict to make use of these receipts and a few individuals don’t wish to be bothered with the receipts, even when they’re digital, that’s completely high quality too. However once more, I can assure you your well being bills are going to be much more afterward in life. So there’s most likely not going to be a scarcity of having the ability to spend down that cash. And also you talked about the triple tax financial savings, in order that’s how most individuals label it tax free, entering into tax free, going out tax free whereas it grows. The opposite little bonus that you simply get, and once more that is again to taxes, Scott, so if in case you have your contributions to your HSA taken by payroll deduction, you don’t pay the FICA tax. That’s social safety and Medicare. In order that’s one other little additional piece that you simply get. So in the event you the chance to make a contribution by your employer, make these contributions, even when the investments that your organization’s HSA is sucky or no matter, nonetheless go forward and get it in there as a result of you’ll be able to all the time open up. Constancy’s one of the superior ones that’s low charge, however one, you’ll be able to have multiple HSA and you could possibly definitely transfer it out if you wish to. So it’s not like your 401k or your employer sponsored retirement plan. You may have a number of HSAs. You don’t have to attend till you allow the corporate in an effort to transfer it. So you’ve much more flexibility than you’d with what you’ve with a conventional retirement account.

Scott:
I do wish to simply throw out right here that we’re beginning this dialogue about catching as much as retirement from an funding perspective, assuming that people are going to spend money on low charge, low price index funds in a wide range of automobiles, which embody after-tax, brokerage accounts, DHSA, retirement accounts, these different kinds of issues, and we’re going to speak concerning the superpowers that people are catching as much as fi have by way of tax benefits and extra entry to funding alternatives that youthful people like myself, for instance, don’t have entry to but. Proper after this advert break, we’ll be proper again.

Mindy:
Alright, welcome again to the present. I actually like how Scott stated youthful people like myself. Nicely Scott, let’s speak about what you don’t have entry to. I’m

Scott:
33. I don’t have entry to a few of these catch alternatives that we’re going to speak about I believe right here.

Mindy:
So okay, a few of our over 50 superpowers, my favourite one is the over 50 catchup contributions. You have got the common in 2024. The common quantity which you could contribute to your 401k is $23,000. That’s for everyone. However as a result of I’m over 50 as a result of invoice’s over 50. Jackie, are you over 50?

Jackie:
Don’t ask me that, Mindy.

Mindy:
Okay, Jackie. If you turn out to be over 50, it is possible for you to to do the 23,000 plus a further $6,000. That’s a small potatoes and since you’re over 50, you most likely have the earnings to have the ability to contribute that. However wait, there’s extra. Your IRAs have a contribution restrict of $7,000 this yr, Scott, however me and Invoice and Jackie, when she turns over 50 may have a further thousand {dollars} that we are able to put into there and if it’s the Roth IRA, that’s a further thousand {dollars} that I’ve paid taxes on. Now that grows tax free. So after I pull it out after I flip, what, 55 and a half, I believe I can attain that cash. I pull it out tax free. In order that’s simply one of many advantages of our being mature.

Invoice:
Yeah. Nicely there’s yet one more truly we forgot. On the subject of the HSA, while you’re over 55 like mo, you’ll be able to add one other a thousand {dollars} to your contribution

Jackie:
Per person who’s in your plan. So that you and your partner are allowed the additional thousand {dollars}. Is that proper, invoice?

Invoice:
I’m undecided about that. Don’t quote me, I’ll defer to you. You’re the CFP.

Jackie:
I do know, I do know I used to be. I used to be simply checking your information slightly bit there, however sure, it’s a thousand {dollars} per individual, however every particular person will need to have their very own HSA. Such as you couldn’t put an additional $2,000 in your HSA for each of you. Karen must open up her personal HSA to get the thousand {dollars} catchup. Oh, oh

Mindy:
Oh, maintain on as a result of I acquired to dive into this. I’m an older mother. I began later. I’m a later begin on parenting. So if I’ve 4 individuals on my HSA at the moment and I’m over, effectively, I’m not over 55 but, however I can be earlier than certainly one of ’em will get off. So can I contribute 4,000 additional {dollars} and so they simply need to have their very own HSA plans.

Jackie:
Nicely simply bear in mind the additional thousand we’re speaking about is for these over the age of 55. Are your youngsters over 55? Oh

Mindy:
No. Oh, okay. So solely, effectively, my husband’s youthful too, man. I acquired to commerce him in for an older mannequin, however

Jackie:
I can’t inform you this Mindy, so your youngsters are both of them, are they over the age of 18 but?

Mindy:
Not but.

Jackie:
Okay. So I’m going to say this for anybody else which may have older, as a result of I had the scenario with my daughter. If in case you have older kids, they may very well be in your medical insurance plan till they’re 26, however they might not be a tax dependent. So if you’re on a excessive deductible plan with an HSA and also you’ve acquired your child on there that’s not a tax dependent, they will even have their very own HSA and contribute the household max. That’s a really good little nuance for those who have grownup kids. I used to be ready to do this for my daughter for a number of years earlier than she was mandated by regulation to not be on my plan anymore. That’s a really good provision. However the secret is they will not be a tax dependent as a result of technically you’ll be able to’t use your HSA {dollars} to pay for somebody’s bills. That isn’t a tax dependent. So that’s their reply to it. I wouldn’t name it a loophole, however it’s superb provision. So in the event you’re capable of contribute, I believe it’s like $8,000 this yr or near it, you’re capable of do $8,000 and also you’re non-tax dependent grownup little one that’s underneath 26, that’s in your plan can even contribute the household most and you could possibly give them the cash to do it. They most likely usually are not. They

Mindy:
Don’t have an age.

Jackie:
Yeah, precisely. So just a bit nuance for older individuals. That scenario could occur for not less than a number of years.

Invoice:
That’s the first time I’ve heard of that hack and I’m already behind the eight ball on that one. I acquired a few years the place I might try this. There you

Jackie:
Go, invoice. You shoulda requested me. Are you kidding? I didn’t even take into consideration that. Try to be doing that already. Nicely, you

Invoice:
Are my co-host and you’re A CFP. Why aren’t you mating me?

Jackie:
I do know I must ate you, however we’ll speak after. However undoubtedly it is advisable to get these as a result of as soon as they get outdated, even when they’re of their mid twenties and even late twenties, lots of occasions it’s onerous for them to get traction and be capable to reside. We’re nonetheless generally supporting them slightly bit and that’s slightly one thing additional you are able to do for them, particularly with regards to the medical stuff. So sure, that may very well be a pleasant possibility.

Scott:
These are superior ideas, however I believe we’re all aligned that the HSA is a superpower and one of many first automobiles that it’s best to maximize and it’s best to reap the benefits of it to the utmost extent as a result of there’s so many use instances for it and also you’re going to wish an enormous bucket of cash. It might by no means be large enough to gasoline healthcare bills in retirement and later in life. However I wish to form of come again to a different query right here. Once more, we’re saying fundamentals of the monetary planner are decrease bills as a lot as attainable. I’m beginning with the implicit assumption that these listening to this are already maximizing their earnings or don’t actually have a method to job hop and make $40,000 extra. If that’s a part of your plan, it’s best to undoubtedly tackle that one. We’re not going to have an enormous dialogue, however the massive choice level I believe from an funding and minimize your bills, however the massive choice on funding standpoint I believe is for many after the ah HSA Roth or 401k, I believe it’s no contest for somebody catching as much as put it within the 401k and never into the Roth for most individuals which are attempting to catch as much as fi.
However Jackie, I wish to hear your opinion on that as a response to that. Do you agree with that or disagree? And in that case, why not?

Jackie:
So I believe some individuals form of get confused. So your 401k or your employer retirement plan, you’ve an choice to make conventional contributions or Roth, you get your selection Now together with your IRA, you bought the identical two decisions. You may select Roth or conventional. So these are two separate issues. The most important chunk clearly goes to be your 401k as a result of that’s like $23,000. Right here’s my backside line. I would like individuals to have a mixture of the 2 to offer you as many choices as attainable. Generally you may wish to pull conventional as a result of it is advisable to present slightly little bit of earnings. Generally you may want to drag Roth since you don’t wish to present any earnings in the event you do conventional, I like the truth that it reduces your taxable earnings and since you could be nearer to that 59 and a half the place you’ll be able to take it out with no penalty.
There’s one other profit to that in the event you ended up doing Roth, clearly you’re not going to get the tax deduction now, but it surely grows fully tax free. And while you go away that firm, and that is what I did after I left my firm, after I rolled it over now the contributions that went into my Roth portion, I might get that out tax penalty free for something. And that grew to become very invaluable to me as a result of I had a number of years earlier than I turned 59 and a half and I hate to all the time use rely, however these are belongings you wish to take into consideration. However it doesn’t matter what, be sure to have a combination. You don’t must have all Roth while you retire and also you don’t must have all conventional that packing containers you in. So have slightly little bit of each.

Scott:
Let me simply push again there as a result of I believe somebody who’s, I’m going to place myself within the footwear of somebody who’s 55 years outdated who’s ranging from zero and says, I wish to catch up as a lot as attainable by retirement age. I make $78,000 a yr and the final 10 years I simply spent all of it. That’s why I’ve no retirement financial savings right here. I’m going to right away take into consideration methods to downsize my housing, but it surely’s going to take me six months to a yr to enact that. It’s going to take me, I want to determine I’m going to down promote my fancy new automobile and get a downsized one there. I’m going to begin packing lunch, however this yr I’m not going to generate $40,000 that I can deploy properly down the capital stack with a $7,000 HSA contribution, 23,000 to my 401k and one other 6500, 7500 into my Roth right here. I’ve to select. How do I make that selection that the onerous selection of which buckets to replenish? Do I only a thousand into the Roth, a thousand into the 401k or how would you advise somebody in that place to make that commerce off, particularly within the first yr or two earlier than they begin ramping their financial savings charge?

Invoice:
If I can chime in shortly, we now have a complete episode on this with Sean Mullaney and he’s 100% advocate for conventional 401k for the late starters, it’s unequivocal. You’re at your peak earnings years and the tax diversification there, effectively, it’s essential you wish to have within the tax triangle taxable Roth and conventional 401k sort contributions so that you could handle your taxes later, however you can too do Roth conversions later. I don’t fully agree with Jackie and we do all conventional 401k. We don’t do any Roth 401k at this cut-off date.

Mindy:
Nicely, I believe that you simply’re in a special place. I just like the Roth for anyone who has an extended timeline to permit it to develop tax free. You’re the next earnings earner and I’m on this place you’re. I wish to scale back my taxable earnings as a lot as attainable slightly than rising my Roth contributions as a result of they’re not going to be as efficient as tax-free clever in my view. However that’s all the time one thing that anyone can do the maths on and ship me a spreadsheet that’s straightforward to learn.

Jackie:
Yeah, it’s actually going to rely in your scenario as a result of then in the event you think about issues like what if in case you have a pension that’s going to be coming, that’s going to be taxable. Let’s think about social safety the place already 85% of your social safety profit may very well be topic to tax. So there’s lots of transferring elements. That’s why actually the one factor I can definitively say is that having a mixture of the 2, I believe the child boomers, so our predecessors, the Roth was barely accessible throughout their working life, in order that they hardly had any Roth in any respect. Most of us, me and Invoice’s age form of within the center, we’ve been doing Roth for fairly a while. So we now have loads of Roth, I’ve loads of Roth. So truthfully in my 401k invoice I used to be doing all now as I used to be studying this and as we’re studying, we make lots of little errors.
I stored going from like, no, I must be doing conventional. Then I’m like, no, no, no, no, I must be doing Roth. So I went forwards and backwards till lastly I settled on doing conventional 401k after which I used to be doing a Roth IRA as a result of for my earnings I used to be proper round $80,000 for my earnings. I nonetheless certified for it. Now in the event you’re actually excessive earnings earner, you’ll be able to’t contribute immediately, you are able to do the again door. It’s simply going to be an additional steal for you. And I assume I’ll as effectively come clear, Mindy, if anyone does the maths. I retired after I was 49 December, 2019, so I’m over 50. However the enjoyable factor was that I acquired to max, I acquired to nonetheless max out my 401k and get the catchup contribution the yr I retired in 2019 as a result of my birthday is in December. So so long as you flip 50 earlier than the final day of the yr, you’ll be able to. So I did do the catchup for one yr. I not have an employer clearly, so I can’t try this, however I might nonetheless contribute to an IRA if I’ve any earnings that will permit me to.

Scott:
The best way I take into consideration all that is I believe that in the event you suppose you’re going to be incomes much less in retirement, you’re going to have it much less taxable earnings in retirement than you do now. It’s best to go along with the 401k and in the event you suppose you’re going to have the identical or extra, it’s best to go along with the Roth. And since I’m 33 and have an extended investing time horizon forward of me, I principally invested within the Roth as a result of I believe tax charges are going up and I believe that I’m going to be glad that I’ve this tax-free development forward of me. However I believe if I used to be catching up, until I had certainly one of these exceptions, such as you stated Jackie, these pensions or no matter, that the 401k can be the place I’d actually emphasize earlier than the Roth if I needed to make the commerce off there for that common situation, I believe in lots of instances. Do you agree with that one?

Jackie:
Yeah, and I believe that’s a longstanding debate, Roth or conventional. So there’s actually no unsuitable reply, however I believe you’re serious about it the proper manner, Scott, as a result of individuals do wish to attempt to come to their very own conclusion and so they want one thing to go on. So a number of the belongings you instructed, I believe these completely make sense. And once more, I attempt to stress to individuals together with your 401k inside that you are able to do Roth or conventional after which you’ve the identical two decisions with regards to your IRA. I ended up deciding to do conventional inside my 401k after which Roth the opposite manner. However yeah, in the event you suppose that is without doubt one of the elements, in the event you suppose tax charges are going to go up greater than seemingly traditionally long-term tax charges are most likely going to go up. So you consider that, besides I simply defer to having some form of combine and attempting to undergo your personal guidelines of what you’ve happening.

Invoice:
And we use the backdoor Roth, we’re excessive earnings earners, however don’t overlook you’ve a spousal contribution as effectively. Individuals could overlook that so you are able to do too.

Scott:
Superior. So we now have HSA 401k and or Roth downstream there. What ought to I do subsequent? What are the subsequent issues that I must be doing with my cash after I’ve began investing in these?

Jackie:
Yeah, invoice, I believe one account that’s extremely underestimated is a daily taxable brokerage account and definitely actual property as effectively if in case you have that. However with a brokerage account, you don’t have to fret concerning the regular restrictions as with a retirement account. So the brokerage account, there’s no age restrict, there’s no contribution restrict, and it might provide you with some extra tax therapy of an funding account that’s totally different out of your retirement account, your Roth or your conventional or your HSA. I believe that’s one thing that most likely deserves to be in everybody’s portfolio or everybody’s mixture of investments and tax therapy accounts going into retirement. What do you suppose, invoice, is there the rest you could possibly consider that most likely must be part of that too

Invoice:
As your money flows down the waterfall? Completely. It’s a pure and we try this as effectively. I believe it’s important as a result of that helps you bridge the hole in the event you retire earlier than social safety.

Jackie:
And what we had been happening the subject of 4 0 1 Ks, there’s that rule of 55. So for late starters, they’re nearer to 55 and there’s a provision. If in case you have an employer retirement plan, that will be a 4 oh Okay, 4 0 3 B, and a thrift financial savings account. These will, in the event you retire the yr during which you flip 55, you’re capable of get cash out of that account with out paying that 10% penalty. So you bought an additional 5 yr bonus which you could reap the benefits of. You couldn’t try this at 45. You couldn’t try this at 32 Scott. In order that’s one other little additional maneuver that older individuals can use in the event that they caught up and determine that, hey, I believe I can step away at 55, you’ve entry to that cash.

Scott:
We spent a very long time speaking about all these things, but it surely actually boils, boils all the way down to a really stunning simplicity I believe that we’ve form of aligned on right here, proper? It’s like perceive your numbers slash bills in the event you can in housing, transportation, meals, reduce leakage from taxes utilizing these accounts just like the HSA and 401k, spend money on index funds and widen that unfold as a lot as you’ll be able to over the subsequent 5, 10, nonetheless a few years it’s going to take you to get to that aim and also you simply chunk it alongside. Now there’s a complete bunch of frameworks and jargon and all these accounts and limits and all these different issues to cowl in there. So I believe that leaves us one final part of the monetary plan, the essence of the monetary plan. It’s that easy on the highest degree and that advanced is a complete nother language if that is your first intro to monetary planning right here. However I believe that that brings me to the very last thing right here, which is an endless journey of studying extra about investing and cash. And I’d love to listen to only a fast recap, Jackie and Invoice, if that’s been true for you guys in your journeys and what that immersion could have seemed like, how lengthy it took you to really feel snug with all this jargon?

Invoice:
Nicely, you simply summarized it completely. I imply it’s like a ten step restoration plan, possibly much less, and your abstract undoubtedly that must be the true, as a result of that’s the bullet level. It’s easy. You bought to unload the jargon. I imply, the monetary trade desires to make it difficult as a result of they need your cash and in the event you take over your funds and comply with your six eight step plan, you started working by the messy center. It’s going to take time, however you’ll get there. It’s attainable. That’s what we’re attempting to inform our viewers. Begin now and you’ll get there. It’s by no means too late.

Jackie:
Yeah, I believe the largest half is it can take time like Invoice stated, and it’s best to have a good time your wins alongside the way in which. There are going to be some errors like me attempting to pay ping pong forwards and backwards between the normal and the Roth till I figured it out. That’s okay. As soon as I made a decision to do this, that’s a win. Once I sat all the way down to do my bills or to take a look at my investments, that’s a win. So have a good time alongside the way in which and this studying doesn’t cease. Dale and I are simply studying. Look, invoice didn’t know concerning the HSA and his grownup kids. Mindy’s investing in Tesla, in her HSA. Look, I acquired every kind of notes simply from at this time, and I retired in 2019. I’m nonetheless studying. Jackie’s

Scott:
Going to a guess on Rivian and her HSA. Proper?

Jackie:
Precisely. There you go. Look, I’m so joyful about how effectively my Nvidia has been doing. I do personal some single shares and I’m a really proud proprietor of a single inventory portfolio, however I’m a nerd like that, that take pleasure in doing the evaluation and issues like that. So I can say that after being retired for 5 years, practically 5 years, my foremost factor is that I’ve realized that precision will not be required. So I attempt to enter this as exactly as attainable, and I do know that I nonetheless made some errors. Nicely, even the errors that I made or the issues the place I knew I wasn’t optimizing 100%, that was okay. By the point I discovered, oh, social safety, I didn’t even depend that. In order that’s a backstop. After which I’d take a look at, oh, after I retire, my web value was $1.3 million, and 5 years later, it’s 1.8 hundreds of thousands, proper underneath $2 million, and I’ve been withdrawing from my portfolio.
That provides me slightly extra confidence. I’m like, I shouldn’t have been so nervous about that. And never that it’s not essential. You do must know these numbers. You do must undergo the method. However as you construct in buffers, that’s going that will help you really feel snug that you simply received’t get thrust into reverse if one thing will get tousled or in the event you make a mistake. So I believe generally we’re slightly bit onerous on ourselves, particularly late starters, and I realized to not be so onerous on myself. Simply continue learning, continue learning, hold speaking to good individuals such as you and Scott, and even my co-host, invoice, he’s good generally too.

Invoice:
Begin a podcast. What you bought to do is begin a podcast. You get to satisfy all these good individuals and study from them.

Jackie:
Precisely. And Invoice, how a lot have we realized doing a podcast? There’s simply a lot and it turns into lots of enjoyable. It turns into a problem, and it’s best to say, what will assist me take pleasure in this Invoice? You’re nonetheless working. You’re a hardworking er physician. And I wish to say, while you’re not saving lives on the hospital, you’re podcasting with me. You actually like it. And so you discover that factor that you simply actually take pleasure in doing day by day, on a regular basis. I’m not getting paid something for doing a podcast. So after I take into consideration working, I hated to even work 40 hours per week as a result of it simply wasn’t my true ardour. And now I simply really feel so in a different way about it. So even when I’m getting three, 4 hours per week, generally extra with podcasting, I’m nonetheless going to mattress with a smile on my face.

Scott:
Nicely guys, this has been a lot enjoyable. Thanks a lot for a terrific two-part dialogue right here on constructing a monetary plan. It begins with acknowledging the issue, perceive the scenario, reliving the errors, but additionally developing with a dream and a imaginative and prescient and a plan, after which translating that into a selected projection mannequin. Projection fashions way more fancy than what you truly must do on this course of right here, however that’s what we’re doing right here. We’re nonetheless estimating out our bills and earnings are and getting there, after which, yeah, it’ll take you years to essentially optimize this path. And that journey comes alongside a whole lot of hours, seemingly of self-education in no matter kind works for you. However you will get there and you can also make an enormous quantity of progress, possibly even 1,000,000 {dollars} value of progress within the subsequent 10 years in the event you begin now.

Invoice:
Completely agree.

Mindy:
Yeah. It’s a must to as a result of he’s proper and also you wish to join with different people who find themselves in the same place to you. So go hearken to the Catching As much as PHI podcast. Be a part of their Fb group, chat with people who find themselves in the same place. Don’t hearken to the people who find themselves telling you you’ll be able to’t do it. I do know which you could.

Jackie:
Yep. And all of us do. And one of many massive issues I wish to point out so far as persevering with to study is consider the way you study the most effective. Are you an auditory learner? Are you a visible learner? Do you want studying books? So discover the podcast, discover the weblog, discover the YouTube, and that may proceed your studying. Discover the neighborhood. That was an enormous, big, pivotal time for me and a realization that that is the stuff that retains feeding my mind.

Scott:
Nicely, Jack and Invoice, thanks a lot for coming right here at this time on the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast to speak about this. It is a big, big downside for lots of parents on the market, and hopefully we helped lots of people get impressed after which truly start the method of formulating a plan. Thanks for having us.

Jackie:
Yeah, this has been superb. Love you guys.

Mindy:
Love you too. And we are going to speak to you quickly. Thanks a lot. Okay. I used to be at this time years outdated after I realized that my grownup little one on my insurance coverage, however not on my taxes, can contribute the household match to their HSA. And you may guess I’m going to be placing that to good use in a few years. Perfection is the enemy of fine. I believe this can be a nice mantra for individuals to suppose and take to their coronary heart and actually bear in mind while you’re attempting to be good, good is absolutely good. I simply spoke with Christie Shen from Millennial Revolution and her retirement portfolio over the previous 10 years has grown from $1 million to $1.5 million even after withdrawing in accordance with the 4% rule yearly for 10 years. I believe that’s fairly superb proof that the 4% rule actually works. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast. He’s the Scott Trench. I’m Mindy Jensen, and since that is an episode for our later starter associates, I’m going to go all the way in which again to the start of the alphabet and say, so long. Alligator

Outro:
BiggerPockets cash was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench. This episode was produced by Eric Knutson, copywriting by Calico Content material, post-production by Exodus Media and Chris McKen. Thanks for listening.