Intro. [Recording date: October 8, 2024.]
Russ Roberts: At present is October eighth, 2024 and my visitor is writer Susan Cain. Her first e-book was Quiet. Her most up-to-date e-book and the topic of at present’s dialog is Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Complete. Susan, welcome to EconTalk.
Susan Cain: Thanks a lot, Russ. It is nice to be right here with you.
Russ Roberts: Inform us in regards to the title of the e-book. In fact, it is the topic of the e-book. What does bittersweet imply to you?
Susan Cain: Bittersweet is about the truth that we dwell consistently in a state that’s each pleasure and sorrow. And, to be in a bittersweet state is to be sort of aware of this–to be aware of the impermanence of the world, and by some means amidst all of that for that data to present us a piercing sense of pleasure and wonder together with every part else. So, it is this curious state of being that to pay attention to the difficulties of life together with the fun of life can by some means be uplifting and elevating versus its reverse, which is what folks anticipate it to be.
Russ Roberts: Your opening of the e-book is a really extremely stunning essay on simply this phenomenon. And, it is somewhat tough to pin down. And, in truth, you depend on music and also you depend on poetry–two issues that I consider as capturing the human expertise that is exhausting to place into phrases. Discuss how music gave you an entry and actually began this e-book going.
Susan Cain: Yeah. I imply, it is humorous that you simply use the phrase ‘rely’ as a result of I do not consider myself as having relied on music a lot for example this extremely ineffable matter. It is somewhat that music is what made the subject related within the first place. As a result of I have been having this expertise all my life, and I do know from the response to the e-book that many different folks do, too. Of listening to music and having been drawn particularly to sort of minor key, longing, looking, craving music and having the expertise of discovering this music incredibly–again, to make use of these words–elevating and uplifting; and this being an actual thriller to me.
I speak within the e-book about an expertise I had after I was a younger 20-something in legislation college, and a few associates got here to select me up in my dorm room to go to class collectively, and so they discovered me listening to one thing like Leonard Cohen–who is my final rabbi and patron saint–and blasting that music. And, my associates thought that was hilarious–of why it was that they discovered me blasting unhappy music. They stated, ‘Why are you right here listening to funeral tunes?’
And, I scratched my head over that query actually for the 25 years thereafter. I used to be attempting to determine, primary, why is it that there was one thing vaguely embarrassing about listening to that sort of music? And second, why–but this was the actual question–why is it that the music to me spoke of affection and elevation and never of the sorrow that’s its manifest content material? That there is a deeper content material beneath the sorrow, and that that is actually what we’re tuning in to when now we have these songs on our playlist.
And, I speak within the e-book about how there’s analysis exhibiting that we take heed to the unhappy songs on our playlist–I neglect the numbers now–but one thing like we take heed to the completely happy songs 175 instances and the unhappy songs one thing like 700 instances. So, there’s one thing about this music that basically makes us tune in.
Russ Roberts: Yeah. Leonard Cohen is a very darkish minstrel. The final track he wrote, as you point out, earlier than he died, is he needs it darker. And, the ‘he,’ in that’s, if I keep in mind accurately, is God. It is a very disturbing track. And, after I was studying your e-book in that part, and inevitably–and I encourage listeners to remark and add their very own favorites–but I considered Bach and the “Partitas” that are probably the most melancholy, for cello–unbearably unhappy. And but I really like listening to them, and so they could make you cry. And, it raises the query you increase. Why would you need to take heed to one thing that might make you cry? Would not you need to take heed to one thing that might make you dance and be joyous? And naturally, we do typically.
The opposite factor I used to be struck by is considering because the Naomi Shemer track, “Al kol eleh [Over all these, a.k.a. The Bitter and the Sweet]” It is a Hebrew track. It is actually, in my thoughts, the actual Israeli nationwide anthem. And, its opening strains are: “Over the honey and the sting, and the bitter and the candy.” And, it is a prayer. It asks the nice Lord to observe over these items. And, it raises your query: Effectively, why would you need to watch over the honey and the sting? Protect the honey, certain, however why additionally the sting?
And, your e-book actually captures bittersweet. The combination of these two is, as you describe it, poignant; and it will get us into an emotional state that’s associated to longing and craving and transcendence. What does transcendence should do with it for you?
Susan Cain: Effectively, you point out the tears. The final word conclusion that I got here to of why it’s that we take heed to this music, it is actually a non secular conclusion. What’s occurring is we, all of us–all human beings–enter this world, we enter in tears, proper? And, we enter in a sort of state of homesickness. A sense that now we have been taken away from the place we had been meant to be. You may see that encoded into all of our religions, proper? There’s the eager for Zion, and the eager for the beloved, and the eager for God that every one the totally different religions speak about.
And, there’s this time period that I got here across–I believe I truly used it because the epigraph within the book–the time period of ‘holy tears.’ And so, what’s occurring is after we see one thing that is extremely beautiful–it might be listening to stunning music; it might be seeing a phenomenal gymnastics routine. It might be a phenomenal soccer recreation. It might be something. You see one thing that is a manifestation of magnificence; and typically now we have that have of it making us cry. It is so stunning that it brings tears to your eyes. And also you surprise: Effectively, why am I crying at that? It isn’t really–a weeping; it is a pinprick of tears. And, why do now we have them?
And I believe the reply is that at that second, we’re beholding one thing so stunning that it reminds us–it’s a type of transcendence. It reminds us of this excellent and exquisite state of union, this excellent and exquisite world that we’re all eager for. And, it additionally reminds us of the hole between that world and the world during which we dwell.
So, it is like while you see that lovely soccer recreation, it is truly as in the event you’re beholding Eden proper over there. You may see it, you’ll be able to scent the sense of it, however you’ll be able to’t fairly enter.
And, there’s one thing about that hole that’s extremely profound for us. And, that is the second of transcendence–in the sense of transcending on a regular basis earthly considerations, transcending our personal self. You are transcending and getting into that state of perfection and wonder if just for a second.
Russ Roberts: Yeah. I believe it is actually beautiful. I definitely really feel it in music. I really feel it with a selected sort of sports activities second. Simply to select up one easy instance that a number of of our listeners will know–not too many. When LeBron James chased down–I believe he was with the Cleveland Cavaliers–he chased down anyone full court docket and blocked what was a sure basket that appeared inevitable. It was excellent, what he did. He did not foul him. It did not contact him. It was an impressive transcending of the constraints of his humanness–and definitely mine as a result of I can not fathom that degree of athletic excellence aside from to notice it.
And, heroism falls into this class as effectively, in fact. Someone who transcends their very own self-interest, their very own limitations and does one thing miraculous for others that almost all of us couldn’t do, can carry us to tears–no matter what occurs to that individual, whether or not they’re profitable, unsuccessful, whether or not they hand over their life, whether or not they do not. However, when anyone does put their life on the road and transcends their self-interest and their humanness, in some sense turns into considerably godly, considerably angelic–whatever the phrase that speaks to you is–it can carry us to tears.
And, they are a very humorous tears. They are not tears of pleasure, though they’re shut. Perhaps that is what they’re. They’re not tears of unhappiness. For me, it isn’t the unhappiness that that is uncommon: it is the alternative. It is the enjoyment that it might occur in any respect, that there is that degree of perfection.
Susan Cain: That is actually fascinating. Although, I do suppose there’s one thing in regards to the rarity of it that makes us exclaim over it as a result of there is a feeling of: Oh, I did not know that this might occur as a result of I am not seeing it daily however right here it’s. This degree of heroism, this degree of magnificence is definitely doable. Yeah. The psychologist, Jonathan Haidt truly calls this ethical elevation, the phenomenon that you simply’re describing. And, I do suppose it is a part of the identical realm.
Russ Roberts: Unusually sufficient, the phrase that we regularly use to explain that second in ourselves as an observer is: ‘It took my breath away.” Which, it is a gasp, nevertheless it additionally implies I left this world in some dimension: for an instantaneous I died. I could not dwell within the presence of that magnificence. I do not suppose that is what we imply by it, nevertheless it has that implication.
Susan Cain: That is so fascinating. I’ve by no means heard anybody make that connection earlier than to that phrase, however I utterly agree with you. That is precisely what it is like.
Russ Roberts: And, why it ought to? I imply, why ought to you–it actually does occur. You do cease respiratory within the face of that sort of transcendent magnificence or efficiency or magnificence or heroism. You should not cease respiratory, however you do: you gasp. And, you place everything–your bodily system–on maintain.
Susan Cain: Yeah. That is very fascinating.
Russ Roberts: Discuss house. You simply alluded to it. It is within the e-book in a quantity of–many, many locations. We do lengthy for house. Why do you suppose?
Susan Cain: Once more–it’s humorous; it is exhausting to reply these sorts of questions with out speaking in regards to the non secular realm as a result of house is the place where–home, I believe–in a non secular sense, house equals Eden. Proper? The very concept of house equals the place of precise union, excellent union, excellent love, unconditional love. That is what we affiliate it with.
And but, we’re all the time falling wanting that very best in a technique or one other, both as a result of we have left home–which is definitely what now we have to do. We’ve to exit into the world and depart house. So, even for somebody who has had the proper childhood, you develop up and you allow that childhood and also you enterprise forth, and that’s the human expertise. And that is correctly. However, there’s all the time a way of the longing to return there or the longing to construct a brand new house.
And that–actually, leaving the non secular realm for a second simply within the context of on a regular basis life–what we’re actually doing on a regular basis is discovering new properties all over the place we go, constructing new properties. So, you construct a brand new house with the household that you’ve or with the chums that you’ve.
So, I am truly at a stage of life the place I am about to be getting into the empty-nest phenomenon within the subsequent couple of years. And, it appears utterly clear to me that the best way to enter that part is by recreating what house means. That my husband and I’ll determine one thing else. We have been so oriented for the final nevertheless a few years it’s round our kids, and we’ll nonetheless be oriented round them, however in a really totally different method. And so, now we have to construct new facets of a house. Form of construct a distinct nest in an effort to really feel alive and completely happy by way of that point.
And so I believe that is what we do. We’re consistently on this means of re-feathering nests, constructing new ones, and so forth. And, that is the essence of being alive in a wholesome method.
Russ Roberts: I’ve actually excellent news for you in regards to the empty nest. There are downsides. It may be very difficult at instances. However, there’s an upside, which is you are going to get management over the home music once more. You’ll management the Sonos. That is the best way I describe it. So, I get much more jazz and Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald and Irish folks music since my children left the nest. I miss them terribly. And, it’s a difficult and really bittersweet second and interval. However, the candy half is you’ll be able to take heed to all of the Bach Partitas you need.
Susan Cain: I’ll say the humorous factor about that’s: our children truly kind of like the identical music that we do. They went by way of a short interval of eye-rolling after we would play the music that we like, nevertheless it did not final lengthy. And, our youthful one particularly, he loves the Bob Seger and the outdated Seventies songs that we’ll usually take heed to. He says, ‘That is so a lot better than modern music and the one cause folks do not admit it is because they suppose they don’t seem to be alleged to.’ So, there you go.
Russ Roberts: Okay. It isn’t going to be just right for you. All proper. I will discover one thing else for you that’ll make you be ok with it.
Russ Roberts: I need to flip to the Buddhist poet, Issa, who–I do not know if I am saying his identify accurately. Early 1800s, a really quick haiku in Japanese. I’ll learn it in English. And, you spent a while riffing on this, and it is fairly highly effective. It is a quite simple poem. It goes like this [:
It is true
That this world of dew
Is a world of dew.
But even so….
And that’s the end of the poem. I’m going to read it again. And the word dew is D-E-W, meaning the morning moisture on grass that disappears and burns off during the day. Here we go.
It is true
That this world of dew
Is a world of dew.
But even so….
Why did you include that poem? What’s it say to you?
Susan Cain: Oh, gosh. Okay. So, first of all, Issa, when he wrote this poem, he and his wife had tried to have children. They had all kinds of difficulties in having children. And, they had had babies who had passed away. And then, finally there was born to them a beautiful daughter who was the light of his life. And then, that daughter, too, succumbed–I think it was to smallpox–and she passed away at the age of something like two years old.
And, he was a Buddhist poet, as you said. And so, he was deeply schooled in the Buddhist idea of impermanence. And so, what he’s saying–and what I love so much about this poem–is he’s saying, ‘I get it. I understand that everything is impermanent. I’ve trained all my life to accept loss and to accept impermanence as the state of being. But, even so, but even so, I still am going to mourn and I still am going to rage against this.’
And, what I love about this is that he’s writing this poem to us–who are still reading it 200 years later–because he knows that all human beings go through this exact same experience. And, this is what always gets me about poetry and music in the first place, is that it’s one person writing to another person who they’ll probably never meet, but who they know share the exact same human experience. So it’s the ultimate connection.
And, part of the reason that I think it’s such a loss to not talk about the bittersweet nature of life is that I actually think it’s one of the deepest ways we have of bridging the gap between souls and between humans. The fact that we’re all united in the bittersweetness of human experience is one of the things that brings us together incredibly profoundly.
And so, that’s what you feel when you read this poem that was written by a man who lived 200 years ago who you will never meet and yet you know exactly what he experienced. And he knows yours.
Russ Roberts: You’re right about this Buddhist ideal of acceptance. And, it’s a different kind of transcendence. Transcendence of tragedy, really. And, there’s a tension in your beginnings of a journey on the Buddhist road. And, you seem to be drawn to the idea of non-attachment as it’s called, but also a little bit uncomfortable with it. What’s the tension there for you?
Susan Cain: Well, the tension is that, yes, I am drawn to it and there are ways in which I really do practice it in everyday life, and I can tell you about those in a minute. But, I’m uncomfortable with it because I don’t really believe it’s possible, fully. And, I also believe that the best of human beings is our insistence on attaching. The fact that we mourn when an attachment is broken is one of the most beautiful things about us.
So, where I’ve come to on this–and I’m looking over here because I am sitting in my office right now and I have poetry taped up all around me. And, here I’m just going to bring one down. There’s the Mary Oliver poem, “In Blackwater Woods,” and she says:
… To live in this world
you must be able
to do three things:
to love what is mortal;
to hold it
against your bones knowing
your own life depends on it;
and, when the time comes to let it
go,
to let it go.
And, that’s really what I believe. But, I don’t think the letting it go comes without mourning or comes without attachment. It’s just all part of one big glorious package, glorious in its own way.
Russ Roberts: Yeah. That’s a beautiful poem. It reminds me of Elizabeth Bishop’s poem, called “One Art.” It starts:
The art of losing isn’t hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn’t hard to master.
And, it goes on to break your heart.
And I just will mention that the beginning of your book–near the beginning–is a little quiz on whether you’re a bittersweet person. And one of the test questions is: Do you get goosebumps three times a day or more? I just got them from that Mary Oliver poem. I don’t know what my count is already today. It’s not the first time. But, I got them again from Elizabeth Bishop.
You write in the book about meditation and the Buddhist ideal of non-attachment and acceptance of loss, and I agree with you. I think it’s not just that it’s too hard. I don’t see it as an ideal, and I struggle to see it as an ideal. I’m open to being wrong. But, like you, I think it’s–for me, the kind of losses we’re talking about, which are more than your car keys, is what the bittersweet is about. It’s the acceptance of that pain, the mortality of the things we love, as Mary Oliver puts it. And, that’s what I want to accept. I want to accept the bittersweet, not just the bitter. I want to accept the bittersweet.
Susan Cain: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And, it’s so funny that Elizabeth Bishop mentions the car keys and so on, because in the book I write about a tribe whose practices I’d come across where they train the mothers of sons. These mothers know that when their sons reach the age of 13, they’re going to leave their mothers’ protection and go forth into the world to become hunters or warriors or whatever it is. And so, the mothers are trained from the time their sons are born to become accustomed to the art of loss, to prepare them for their son becoming 13. And so, they train themselves in losing their proverbial car keys. They have to, every year, give up an item that’s incredibly important to them.
And, I don’t do that myself, but what I do do is think about the stoic practice of memento mori, which means the remembrance of death. So, just to remember at all moments that everything that we love is ephemeral and mortal. And, I know that to some people that sounds like a depressing practice, but I find it to be really the opposite, because it just makes you attune to the preciousness of everything.
And, I started doing this in particular when my sons were little and we had our nighttime bedtime ritual, which was always one of the sweetest times of the day. And I was going through a period where, as much as it was one of the sweetest times of the day, I was also incredibly busy with work, and I would sometimes bring my cell phone in with me to bedtime. And, if my son looked away at whatever he was distracted by, I would steal a look at my cell phone. And then, I started doing this practice of remembering: I could be gone tomorrow, he could be gone tomorrow. We don’t know anything. And that completely changed the tenor of these bedtimes. It wasn’t just easy to leave the phone in another room. It was like, of course I was going to leave the phone in another room. And, again, not because I was depressed about it, but just because: Oh, this is precious.
Russ Roberts: Yeah. I often send–it’s about one minute long. It’s Gretchen Rubin. I’m going to–interestingly–get to reference Gretchen Rubin in a minute. But, Gretchen Rubin created a one-minute video called “The Days Are Long, but the Years Are Short.” It makes me cry, actually, every time I watch it. And, I’m choking up a little bit now, just even referencing it without seeing it, because it captures what you’re talking about and reminds you about what’s precious.
When my kids were little, I would remind myself: She’s only going to be two-years-three-months in one day, for one day; and that day is different than the day before it and the day after. And, it’s unique, and I want to savor it as much as I can. I didn’t quit my job and live off the land or anything, but I did try to remember the transience of the mortality of that day, and that week, and that month. And, anyone out there with children, anyone out there listening, it’s precious advice.
We’ll put a link up to the Gretchen Rubin video because it gets you. It’s really something.
Susan Cain: I love that. I love that.
And, I will say, going back to the idea of, that we can continually rebuild our homes: My kids are teenagers now, and so the relationship with them is completely different, but so amazing in its own way. And so, I feel like relationships are like that. You’re just constantly rebuilding the home in which you live, or redecorating it. And, you love it just as much as the one before, but it’s differens.
Russ Roberts: That’s a nice image. I really like that.
So, I was going to mention Gretchen Rubin anyway, but you had an interview with her, and someone responded to that interview and said–referring to something tough in her life–‘When I think of these events, it’s not the sadness I remember. It is the union between souls. When we experience sadness, we share in a common suffering.’
You know, I like the expression: Everyone’s in a battle, so be kind. We usually forget that. We think we’re the only ones in a battle, and we look at everybody else and they–they’re so damn happy or cheerful or okay, and I’m having such a hard time here, and what’s wrong with me? That saying reminds you that we’re all in a battle, and I think that’s true. And, that quote gets at something powerful. Talk about that.
Susan Cain: Yeah. I love that quote. That actually came–it’s funny–that was from years before I even started writing Bittersweet. I think it was soon after Gretchen had come out with the Happiness Project; and she asked me what my vision of happiness was. I think it was for her blog. And, I think that was probably–now that I think about it–the first time I talked about this. I said, ‘Well, there’s this thing called the happiness of melancholy.’ Which is actually even what I was going to call this book at the beginning, but my publisher didn’t like that title.
Russ Roberts: Not as good.
Susan Cain: Yeah. There you go. So, I wrote about the happiness of melancholy and this person wrote in talking about–I think she was talking about her grandfather’s funeral and how it was the first time she had seen her father cry, at that funeral; and that there was a barbershop chorus that sang really beautifully. And, she described it as this union between souls.
And, this gets to the idea that we were talking about with Issa, that there’s something about going through those kinds of experiences together that is incredibly uniting. And it also makes us aware of everyone on a kind of soul level: that it’s not just the guy down the street; that’s another soul alongside yours and that we’re all united.
And, I guess that can sound as if it’s operating on a kind of woo[?] degree. However, one of many fascinating items of analysis that I discovered by way of this e-book comes from Dacher Keltner, the superb psychologist at Berkeley. And, he studied the best way during which all of us have in our our bodies the vagus nerve. And, that is the most important bundle nerve assortment in our our bodies, that regulates–it’s very historical, evolutionarily talking. It regulates our digestion, respiratory, hunger–everything. So, it is a very basic outdated a part of ourselves as organisms.
And, that very same piece of us–that vagus nerve–reacts after we see one other being in misery. So, I see you in misery, my vagus nerve turns into distressed as effectively. And, this means that on some very primary and basic degree, we actually are drawn to one another and noticing one another’s ache and united by it. God is aware of, it doesn’t suggest we all the time react this manner, however now we have this capability.
And, I believe it is one thing we must be enthusiastic about extra. Even Darwin, by the way–Charles Darwin, who is thought for the idea of the survival of the fittest–Darwin additionally observed this. And, he truly known as this the strongest–I do not keep in mind the precise phrases, nevertheless it’s in his e-book, The Descent of Man. He calls it–the strongest impulse in animals is to react on this strategy to noticing the struggling of different animals. So, yeah. There it’s.
Russ Roberts: And also you hyperlink to a video, which we’ll additionally hyperlink to–really extraordinary stunning ad–but greater than an advert. It is for the Cleveland Clinic. Describe that video. It is probably life-changing. It is a exceptional little bit of encouragement to be somebody higher than you already are.
Susan Cain: Yeah. I simply received goosebumps simply enthusiastic about that video. So, this was a video that the Cleveland Clinic put collectively simply to coach its healthcare employees in empathy. It ended up going viral. Which, in the event you’re listening to this and also you go watch it, you may see why.
Okay. So, this video, it pans by way of the corridors of a hospital. And the video stops on the faces of simply random people who find themselves strolling by way of this hospital simply the best way you’d in the event you had been strolling by way of a hospital. Besides on this case, the video offers you captions beneath every human to indicate you what that human goes by way of at that second. And so, for one individual, there’s somewhat woman and it says she’s saying goodbye to her father for the final time. And there is one other caption for a person who’s been ready for a coronary heart transplant for years. And, you see all these totally different captions, and also you understand: Oh my gosh, all people has a caption. Not simply within the hospital corridors, however all of us have captions.
And, even within the video, a number of the captions are completely happy captions. Somebody is about to get married. However, I take into consideration this on a regular basis now. Like, I’m going into the grocery retailer and I believe, ‘Oh, what are the captions of the cashier who I am chatting with proper now? What are the captions of this individual or that individual?’ And, you could by no means know what they’re, nevertheless it makes you work together with them in a totally totally different method.
Russ Roberts: And, there isn’t any dialogue, if I keep in mind accurately. Nobody speaks. They’re simply strolling alongside and also you discover them, as you say, as in the event you’re strolling previous them. And, often you do not give them a second’s thought since you’re trapped in your individual captions.
And, one of many highly effective, I believe a part of that video is to remind you that these different folks have interior lives loads like yours. They’ve your fears, your goals, your tragedies, your successes, your victories, your losses. It is a phenomenal, stunning piece of theater. It is so effectively completed, for a minute I truly thought it’d’ve been actual that they simply walked by way of the hospital with a handheld digital camera. However they’re actors. I am fairly certain.
Susan Cain: Oh, is that true?
Russ Roberts: Yeah. They’re actors.
Susan Cain: I additionally assumed it was actual, however I by no means actually gave an excessive amount of thought to the manufacturing of it.
Russ Roberts: Effectively, it is so good that, like several nice piece of performing and theater, you neglect that you simply’re watching performing and also you’re drawn into it and also you empathize. Your vagus nerve lights up and your mirror neurons fireplace and so forth.
Russ Roberts: Let’s speak for a minute about America. You speak about how the American perspective is sunny, not a lot bittersweet. And, a number of the challenges that younger folks have–we’ve talked about on this system before–that younger folks have in at present’s world, the place they’re anticipated to be extraordinarily completely happy on a regular basis. And naturally they don’t seem to be.
Susan Cain: Yeah. And, that expectation for younger folks, particularly on faculty campuses, has a reputation that I found after I went to interview folks, and the identify for it’s ‘easy perfection.’ So, it is the concept that faculty college students have that they are alleged to current as extraordinarily social, affable, completely happy, nice grades, nice conversationalists, nice athletes, well-dressed, all the remainder of it. And never solely all these items, not solely all this happiness, but additionally it is all supposed to come back effortlessly. So, you are alleged to current as if it does.
And, that may take an actual toll on folks. And, it’s totally fascinating. While you inform Individuals that in different cultures, it isn’t essentially anticipated that folks must be smiling on a regular basis, that is surprising to Individuals as a result of in fact you are alleged to current that method.
And I believe I wrote about this within the e-book. I believe I had my first encounter with this when seeing a photograph album–someone I knew who grew up in Jap Europe–and I used to be trying by way of the photograph album from his teenage years and all his associates are staring unsmilingly on the digital camera. And I had by no means seen something prefer it. However, for them, that was the cool strategy to seem in images. Whereas I can consider years’ of my teenage images that I used to hold on my walls–and I had collages of them–and each single one it smile, smile, smile. So, we do not understand the extent to which that is truly a cultural dictate versus a given method of being.
Russ Roberts: And, after I hear about that {photograph}, I believe the phrase that involves my thoughts is ‘grim.’ And, after I take into consideration the American selfie, it is ‘drunken ecstasy.’ It is: ‘I am not simply completely happy. I am not simply smiling. I’m delirious with pleasure.’ Listeners, I apologize, nevertheless it’s very related: I used to have a Russian friend–I do not dwell close to him anymore, I have never seen him in a protracted time–but an acquaintance. And, I might see him and I might say, ‘How are you?’ And, he’d say, ‘Wonderful, like all Individuals.’ As a result of within the Soviet Union, you were not nice. And, you instructed the reality: you shrugged, you groaned, no matter it was.
I need to remind listeners, by the best way, that we’ll be studying Life and Destiny collectively by Vasily Grossman. If you wish to learn it earlier than I speak to Tyler Cowen about it, that may in all probability will air towards the top of November, round November twenty fifth or so. So, get studying: it is a 872-page e-book. And there is not numerous happiness in it, nevertheless it’s bittersweet. It is a tremendous e-book. Actually a masterpiece.
Susan Cain: You might be reminding me of a digital occasion that I did with an organization. I believe we had been speaking about The Energy of Introverts [Cain’s Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking] at this firm, and it was over Zoom. At the start of the Zoom name, as they usually do, they had been asking folks, you recognize, ‘Kind into the chat field your identify and the place you are dialing in from. And the way are you feeling at present?’ And, each single individual stated, ‘Superior, excited, thrilled to be right here.’ Yay, yay, yay. I believed it is simply statistically not possible that every one these persons are having this specific array of feelings. That is what now we have to current.
Russ Roberts: Yeah. I’d have typed in ‘Liar, liar, pants on fireplace.’
Russ Roberts: Okay. Again to one thing somewhat extra severe. I need to speak about loneliness. I need to learn yet another poem. We talked earlier, a couple of minutes in the past, in regards to the union of struggling and the widespread struggling and the union of between souls. And, I believe the flip aspect of that’s loneliness, or alone-ness. They are not fairly the identical factor. However, Thomas Wolfe, I believe stated it in addition to anybody. I believe it is from Look Homeward, Angel. And, it is an important, bittersweet passage. It goes like this:
… a stone, a leaf, an unfound door; a stone, a leaf, a door. And of all of the forgotten faces.
Bare and alone we got here into exile. In her darkish womb we didn’t know our mom’s face; from the jail of her flesh have we come into the unspeakable and incommunicable jail of this earth.
Which of us has recognized his brother? Which of us has appeared into his father’s coronary heart? Which of us has not remained perpetually prison-pent? Which of us just isn’t perpetually a stranger and alone?
O waste of misplaced, within the scorching mazes, misplaced, amongst vibrant stars on this weary, unbright cinder, misplaced! Remembering speechlessly we search the good forgotten language, the misplaced lane-end into heaven, a stone, a leaf, an unfound door. The place? When?
O misplaced, and by the wind grieved, ghost, come again once more.
Finish of quote.
And what Thomas Wolfe is saying–he’s not the primary one; in truth, it is an everlasting theme in literature–is that aloneness is our basic state as human beings. And is not, in some sense, that the essence of the bittersweet that we’re speaking about?
Susan Cain: I do not know. As a result of to me, I assume it is a theme I maintain returning to. I believe there’s one thing in regards to the bittersweet that’s basically connecting and the alternative of aloneness. I believe the aloneness comes from not telling the reality about human expertise and feeling that you simply’re alone in it.
And, to me, the reply to the thriller of: We began out speaking about of why it’s that we love unhappy music so much–it does not make sense, why would anybody need to really feel unhappy?–is that the composer and the music itself is telling you that you simply’re not alone. Like they’re sharing every part they really feel and every part they know to be true. And also you take heed to it and also you say, ‘Oh, that is what I do know to be true, additionally.’ And also you’re the alternative of alone in that second.
I believe it is like an important tidal wave of affection while you hear music like that or poetry like that. Like, I believe that is why we learn. I believe that is why we create. That is why we do all of this. There is a basic connection that comes from these acts and from that type of telling the reality. [More to come, 43:35]
