Sadomasochistic. Abusive. Codependent. These might all describe the deranged bromance between Tom Wambsgans, the cornfed basic, and Greg Hirsch, the leggy princeling of ATN, in “Succession.”
But despite blackmail and ritual humiliation, this proved to be the most enduring and arguably the most loving relationship in the show, which wrapped up on Sunday night. (Spoilers follow.) So loving, in fact, that multiple fans have re-cut scenes of the pair scored to Taylor Swift’s “You Belong With Me.”
As the son-in-law (Matthew Macfadyen’s Tom) and great-nephew (Nicholas Braun’s Greg) of the billionaire Logan Roy (Brian Cox), these men were both insiders and outsiders, privy to the power of the Roys, but never quite of it. Their double act, however sadistic, provided many of the show’s lighter moments. This duo, who called themselves the Disgusting Brothers, observed the drama while often remaining just beyond its reach.
In spite of that, or maybe because of it, the show and its creator, Jesse Armstrong, arranged happy endings of a kind for each, with Tom installed as the puppet chief executive of Waystar Royco and Greg as his lackey. (Certain fan theories had predicted this, including one that connected Tom’s surname to that of an early-20th-century baseball player, though Braun and Macfadyen said they did not pay much attention to fan chatter.)
The morning after the finale, Macfadyen and Braun joined a video call — Braun from Manhattan, Macfadyen from London — to discuss the series, their friendship offscreen and on and whether the show has given them a taste for high-end timepieces. Braun paused the call at the beginning so that he could maximize Macfadyen’s presence on his screen.
“I just want to see his face bigger,” Braun said affectionately.
These are edited excerpts from the conversation.
Is this a good outcome for Tom, this new role as puppet C.E.O.? Has he won?
MATTHEW MACFADYEN I never thought of it in terms of winning. That’s how it falls, I guess. The next day, there’ll be a [expletive]storm. It goes on.
Is this what he wanted?
MACFADYEN You could make the argument that he wanted to have a happy marriage or maybe for Shiv [Tom’s wife, played by Sarah Snook] to do it and him to be No. 2. He would have been happy with that, too. I genuinely don’t know what he wants any more than I know what I want. He wants to shinny up the greasy pole, but I don’t know how ruthless he is.
NICHOLAS BRAUN People sometimes ask, “What is Greg doing in there? What does he want? Why does he keep hanging around?” We weren’t playing these big long game things.
Is this a good ending for Greg, in thrall to Tom forever at a greatly reduced salary?
BRAUN It’s a good résumé builder: Put a big position on LinkedIn; get the headhunters involved for the better salary somewhere else.
Do you think he can leave Tom?
BRAUN For Greg, that’s always in his mind. Like, “Do I need this? Do I need to feel this bad at work?” I also don’t know if he’s going to cut my salary. I think he could like triple it. Easily.
MACFADYEN You’ll be head of dismissals.
BRAUN Chief H.R. officer. Walking down the hall, every office: “You’re fired.”
Why do you think Shiv sides with Tom over her brothers, Kendall and Roman?
MACFADYEN Maybe she doesn’t choose Tom over her brothers. Maybe she just can’t stomach her big brother. It’s not a binary choice. She just looks at Kendall and thinks, “I can’t.” I don’t think she made a rational decision. And then there’s this beautiful stage direction that Jesse wrote in the script of Tom and Shiv in the car. He talks about two bombs being transported.
In that shot they hold hands, but not quite, she lays hers atop his. Was that also in the stage directions?
MACFADYEN I think it was. Tom offers a hand. She puts her hand on top. Tom and Shiv after all they’ve been through, it felt very chilly and weird and not triumphant on Tom’s part at all. They’re going to go home and who knows?
Maybe that’s because it had to be Tom and Greg all along. Have you paid attention to the fans’ shipping you?
MACFADYEN Not in any great depth.
BRAUN Only the Taylor Swift fan-cam. [To Macfadyen] The one that I sent to you yesterday. I think it’s really well done.
Was there any kind of romance there? Any hint of eros?
MACFADYEN I don’t think so. The fun of all that is what people project onto it. But we didn’t play it like that. It’s been so wonderful acting with Nick, the energy and the chemistry and all the rest of it. There’s all kinds of stuff with Tom and Greg swirling around, which is up for grabs. But we’re just playing the scene.
BRAUN It’s just the joy of being private. These guys love to have secrets and secret conversations. There are moments where we would, like, smile at each other.
MACFADYEN That’s part of being outsiders, and they’ve been like that from the beginning.
So during the powder room fight scene in the finale, you never did a take where you kissed at the end?
MACFADYEN No. That was really kind of horrible. Nick and I just thought, Oh, let’s go for it. Let’s hit each other. It was real.
BRAUN You want to pull it when you hit somebody. But when the camera is that close, you can’t. Like, I had to just straight up hit you. It’s how you and I worked together, like, you’re going to trust me and I’m going to trust you to do anything you want. And we’re going to be OK at the end. There were some takes where we hit each other more times.
Greg and Tom were both proximal to the Roy family, but existed just beyond it. What was their role on the show?
MACFADYEN I’m sure there’s a clever answer in terms of the dramatic narrative, like the fools in a Shakespeare play, but that would diminish them, because they’re not just comic relief. But they’re not the cold, hard, screwed-up Roys — they haven’t suffered at the hands of Logan like the siblings have. They’ve got a different energy.
BRAUN They didn’t grow up in this dynamic of Logan batting them down and building them up and crushing them again. Structurally, you need some contrast because otherwise you’re just in the most serious stuff. Greg just wants stupid things: a new suit, good shoes.
MACFADYEN I mean, the whole world of “Succession” is absurd. The corridors of power are absurd. Greg and Tom are on the broader end of that. Kendall is uber serious, hilarious in his seriousness. We dip into farce. But it’s a mistake to think that they don’t care — they care just as much as the others. We played everything like life and death.
You’ve developed an offscreen friendship. Have you given yourselves a nickname, à la the Disgusting Brothers?
MACFADYEN No, no, we’re much more sophisticated than that.
Do you have favorite Tom and Greg scenes?
MACFADYEN Too many. They’re all lovely. I loved all the sequence in the panic room, and then afterward when you try and blackmail me. Often it’s the tiny little moments, the little looks.
BRAUN A lot of times we will be breaking [into laughter] in the background.
MACFADYEN We just ruin other people’s work. It’s really unprofessional, actually.
BRAUN If you ever see the two of us looking up at the ceiling together or turning very quickly to a wall in the background, it’s probably because we’re breaking.
MACFADYEN There were times when you and I did walk off set with this weird shame. Like we’d let everybody down and let ourselves down because something was so funny.
Shame can be healthy. Were your characters capable of shame? Did they ever feel bad about subverting democracy?
MACFADYEN No, they would have blamed somebody else.
BRAUN They have been desensitized, like everybody in this world. We’re all a bit numb to caring deeply about things. So much about being in this world for Tom and Greg is just keeping your job. You just do the next thing to keep the job.
The show stakes an ambivalent position when it comes to wealth and class. Did working on it give you a taste for watches and penthouses and custom suiting or the opposite?
MACFADYEN Not really. A lot of the locations were these extraordinary properties, and it’s oddly comforting, because you think, I don’t want this.
BRAUN You go inside some of the sets, like you think, the yacht’s going to be amazing. And it’s just a place, kind of gaudy. That yacht in particular was kind of ugly inside and that was true of a lot of the hotel rooms and mansions and castles.
Nick, I love that this has made you a yacht critic. And Matthew, that does seem to be a very nice watch you’re wearing.
MACFADYEN Yeah, I’ve always been into watches.
So you can’t blame ‘Succession’?
BRAUN I probably can. I bought my first Rolex from knowing a little bit about Rolexes on the show. My character bought the Submariner Rolex. That started me up.
MACFADYEN I was quite a good watch consigliere to you. I tried.
Why do you think that viewers became so obsessed with a show about awful privileged people?
MACFADYEN I never thought it was about the privilege or the money, that’s the least interesting thing about it. It’s a family. It’s the love or the lack of love and trust and power. The lack of love and support from the patriarch to the siblings, is the engine of everything.
BRAUN People say to me, “I’m the Shiv in my family.” “I’m Kendall; our dad is Logan.” A family I always think about is this Korean family that owns a sandwich shop in the East Village. I went in for a sandwich one night and the cashier was like, “Oh, my God, ‘Succession’! Wow. Oh, my God, I love you. My dad, he’s Logan.” His dad was packing the freezer and didn’t even look up. That’s a huge thing. People love to see themselves in this show.
Finally, as someone who loves the episode with the Senate hearing when Tom’s emails are read aloud, I have to ask, what is the recipe for a perfect Tomlette?
MACFADYEN Eggs and shame.
