Russ Roberts: Now, your book is a collection of aphorisms, short bits of wisdom, insights, advice. And, I want to start with the first one, which could be the motto for this program. Here’s the first one. ‘Learn how to learn from those you disagree with or even offend you. See if you can find the truth in what they believe.’ That’s what you wrote. Now, I believe this with all my heart, but is it advice anyone really wants? And, can anyone really implement it? And, can you give us some thoughts on how to implement it? I think if you ask people, ‘Do you agree with this?’ ‘Oh, absolutely.’ ‘Do you do anything about it?’ ‘Absolutely not.’ So, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on implementation.
Kevin Kelly: Well, I think you’re right. I think everybody aspires to this, and I think it is difficult.
So, first of all, these aphorisms were kind of written for me. I tried to take a whole book of advice and try to reduce it down to one memorable thing that I could repeat to myself to constantly remind myself of what to do. Only later on did I want to pass it on to my kids.
So, I try to remember this myself when I’m meeting people are hearing things. And so, I try–there are people that I follow on Twitter that I don’t agree with, and I’m, like, ‘Okay. Other people respect them. I need to hear what they’re saying.’
I also go to a webpage called Now Upstart, where you get the entire internet and all the news all at once. And, it has Drudge Report and it has Breitbart and it has all the kind of sources that I am really not–I don’t have a high respect for, but I want to hear what they’re saying. And so, every day I see the headlines and see what they’re reporting on and how they’re reporting on.
So, I do make some attempt to try and understand positions that I don’t understand because some people seem to respect it and understand it, and it’s like, ‘What am I missing?’ And, I might be reminded that, ‘Okay, I see where we diverge and I don’t agree with it.’ But, I am trying hard as I can without sort of occupying my entire life doing it to hear opinions that I don’t agree with, to see if I can change my mind. Because, I get a thrill out of changing my mind.
Russ Roberts: Yeah, I agree with that. But, it’s an acquired taste, I think–as I’ve mentioned many times on the program–to say, ‘I don’t know.’ It took me a long time to say it at all. It took me a long time to enjoy saying it. And, I know people who, when I ask them if they’ve heard of something, they can’t say no, I know they haven’t heard of it. And, they kind of go, ‘I think maybe,’ and I’m thinking, ‘You never heard of it. It’s okay, just say it. It’s okay.’ But, the question I have is that–I mean, is this good advice in the sense that, well, I think the reason think this kind of experience or advice is not often taken is because it’s not so fun.
And, certainly at first. Right? To be told, to imagine what your intellectual opponents say–here are many ways aspects of this–but to imagine your intellectual opponents might be right. That’s no fun.
So, I’m just suggesting, I think this is advice that’s hard to accept and it does often lead to discomfort, which is a better way of making the point. And, that you and I think discomfort is good. Most people don’t, I don’t think.
Kevin Kelly: I in part travel a lot to embrace some discomfort. I think some discomfort is part of what good travel is about. You’re actually putting yourself out, you’re leaving things behind, and you’re having some discomfort. And, that discomfort is good because it’s forcing you to look differently, to think differently, to reevaluate what it is that you think is important.
And, I think that is–there’s another piece of advice in the book, which is that, for certain, there are things that I believe very strongly: that my descendants will be embarrassed by me and my belief.
And so, I’m always wondering what is it that I’m totally wrong about? And, I really want to know, because I don’t want to be wrong. And so, I’m kind of checking in to see what is it that I believe that will be embarrassing in the future.
And, it’s very hard to tell because obviously I’m not believing in things that I think are wrong. And so, it could be anything. It could be that I think this advice is true and it’s all wrong. That would be very embarrassing. But, there’s something that I’m getting totally wrong, and I would like to know about that.
Russ Roberts: Well, let’s talk about the power of clichés. Some of these–some of the aphorisms are things like, ‘Oh, of course. Yeah, I know that.’ And, others are surprising; and others, as you say, might not be right. But, when we think about a focused piece of insight, I’m going to give you one that you gave in the book, ‘If you mess up, ‘fess up.’ And, it has a few other sentences around it. But, I’m going to remember, ‘If you mess up, ‘fess up.’
And, I’m wondering if you might talk about the role that a mantra has in habit formation. That’s really what you’re talking about. That, when you come to a decision or a crisis or a moment of anger, what you can, quote, “say to yourself”– can one of these expressions come to mind?
You say you wrote them for yourself. I have my own. I have a bunch of these, of course. I think we all do. And, I want you to talk about whether that’s a good idea–whether people listening should try to acquire these. They’re a little like poetry: things you memorize to hold onto and have, and you bring them out–if you think enough about them, you’ll bring them out without having to ponder them. They will pop into your head and maybe prevent you from making a terrible mistake.
Kevin Kelly: Yeah, that’s exactly what they’re for. They are to inculcate little tiny habits. And, those little habits can be grown into larger habits.
And, a lot of it is very practical things. So, one of my pieces of advice that I, again, repeat to myself, or I condensed so that I could repeat to myself was, when I can’t find something in my house that I know that I have, and I finally find it, I say to myself, ‘Don’t put it back where I found it. Put it back where I first looked for it.’ And, I always tell myself that, ‘Oh right, no, no, don’t put it back–put it back where I looked for it.’ And, that’s much, much better. And, I can find it again very fast. Because I think about it and that’s where it is. So, it’s a little story I tell myself and it works.
And, another little example would be when there’s a controversy about two sides, black and white–two sides–I always say, ‘What is the third side?’ There’s some third side to it that triangulation can break that dilemma and make it easier to see maybe there’s a solution in there. And so, it’s, like, ‘Okay, two people with this side; there’s a third side, where is it?’ I ask myself, ‘When there’s two sides, where is the third side?’ So, I’d say that to myself when I confront those. And, that’s the kind of practical proverb, maxim, adage that I’m trying to make something memorable. I mean, ‘If you mess up, ‘fess up,’ that’s something you can remember.
Russ Roberts: Another one I love, which is also one of mine; I’d literally say this to my children at times: ‘Listening is a superpower.’ It’s hard to remember because we like to talk, but listening is a superpower and you add to it, a really interesting addition. You say, ‘Listening is a superpower. While listening to someone you love, keep asking them: Is there more? until there is no more.’
Kevin Kelly: Right. So, you need to go at least three times, but you would say, ‘Is there more?’ And, then they’re talking and then you say, ‘Is there more?’ And, then you go, and by that point you’re really getting the heart of the matter. You’ve got to go all the way and let them go through the obvious stuff and the cliché stuff. And, then at the third, ‘Is there more,’ then you’ll hear the real story.
Russ Roberts: You have a rule of three in conversation. When you ask someone for a reason for why they did something, ask them again to go deeper. Does that work, in your experience?
Kevin Kelly: Yes, it does. It does. Particularly if there’s an uncomfortable conversation to be had, which is another piece of my advice is that you kind of gauge your own personal growth by how many uncomfortable–to get back to this discomfort–conversations you’re willing to have. But, part of that is to–yes, if you are willing to be patient and hear them out and encourage them, sometimes it takes that third try.
Which is related to another piece of advice, which is: you’re–if you’re researching something, you often need to go down to the seventh level of the footnote to the footnote or the person who doesn’t know, who may know, in order to get an answer to something.
And, there is this sort of a sense of this kind of follow-through, because the superficial, easy answers are not really going to work, but you need to be patient.
And, patience is another theme of the book, in that we overestimate what can be done in a couple of years and underestimate what can be done in a decade or doing it for 10 years.
And so, I have kind of a long view–there’s a long view that kind of suffuses the book, which is, like, if you take a long view for investments, for friendships, for relationships, you can get a lot done. If you’re trying to get rich quick, it’s not going to work.
